ShaenOfficer Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
 by Shaen on 2010/04/26 11:19
I'm sure you've seen it by now, but this is awesome news for a guild like ours. The important parts are in bold:
| Quote: | "We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!" |
I'm sure a lot of 25 man guilds will whine at first, but this has been a long time coming. There are of course 25 man fights now that are certainly more difficult than their 10 man counterparts, but probably an equal number that are just as hard or harder with 10 people. The most important difference is on the organizational side and I think more loot for more people makes more sense than more loot and better loot. Heroic 10m ICC drops the same ilvl as normal 25m, but I'd be surprised if anyone would argue that they're equal in difficulty.
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MillyaGuild Leader Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Millya on 2010/04/26 11:25
AFK, finding new pants.
THIS IS SO AWESOME. That is as articulate as I am able to be right now.
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VosskahOfficer Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Vosskah on 2010/04/26 11:29
Agreed with the pants comment.
This is probably the best thing they could have done in Cat, and no more Guildox strict crap.
It will be much easier to recruit and having the same loot tables will be great. No more trinket that can only be found in 25.
I'm seriously loving this change just for how much it will simplify things.
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ShaenOfficer Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Shaen on 2010/04/26 11:34
Hell, having access to the same trinkets is enough to make this totally exciting to me. 
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ullariendMember Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by ullariend on 2010/04/26 11:49
When I saw this I tried to come up with some civil rights type rhetoric about us no longer being 2nd class citizens to start a thread here, but gave up because everything sounded lame
I definetly approve
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Artisane on 2010/04/26 12:02
I too love this change. I hate that there are certain trinkets only available in 25 man. Awesome change is awesome.
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Noodlestein on 2010/04/26 12:19
Been waiting for this for far too long!
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MeraxissMember Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Meraxiss on 2010/04/26 14:07
This is almost as big a change to the raid system as it was when they went from 40 to 25. I can think of a lot of guilds that are carrying a good dozen R tards, and only put up with them for the better loot.
I predict that we will soon be awash in 10 man guilds at the onset of Cataclysm with an upswing to 25's at the mid point. Any takers?
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Alawyn
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Alawyn on 2010/04/26 14:27
So awesome!!
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CarlctrlRaider Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Carlctrl on 2010/04/26 18:38
I also was blown away by this announcement, I didn't think Blizzard would actually do this. This could be considered a effective lowering of the raid limit to 10.
| Quote: | | I predict that we will soon be awash in 10 man guilds at the onset of Cataclysm with an upswing to 25's at the mid point. Any takers? |
I predict just the opposite, I think people will stick with what they know and already have, but as guilds are forced to do 10 man's (due to player attrition or other random events) they will discover what we all have learned; that 10 man's are better. And without the better gear to entice them, they will slowly switch. Thought I could see an upswing in 25's as players discover they can't cut it in a 10 man environment where their mistakes are more obvious. They may find they need the anonymity of the 25 man to be invited back to raids. Hmm...
Anyway, this bodes well for 10 mans!
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Dirtface on 2010/04/26 19:44
| Quote: | | Thought I could see an upswing in 25's as players discover they can't cut it in a 10 man environment where their mistakes are more obvious. |
<3. Any line of reasoning based in the fact that people are idiots sits well with me.
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Badddger on 2010/04/28 14:01
This is definitely great news. Not only does it do what everyone has said above, but also it lends more support for what we've been doing with the strict 10 man stuff.
I have a question, though. Do you think this will make recruiting easier, or more difficult? Take the 25-man raid guilds now, and say the only thing really keeping them together is the draw for better gear, but not enough of a draw after Cataclysm drops. Do you think we will see an influx in 10-man guilds which results from the breakup of 25-man guilds?
I don't recall how it went with guilds when raids went from 40 to 25, though this isn't exactly the same situation as it was when they phased out the 40-mans.
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Noodlestein on 2010/04/28 16:30
On my old alliance server, when it went from 40 to 25 ALOT of the main guilds broke up and formed smaller guilds, there were a small few who tried to recruit a few extra to run two 25's but then they just ended up splitting as well.
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ShaenOfficer Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Shaen on 2010/04/28 17:15
I think the hardcore progression 25 man guilds will stick with 25s, but a lot of the ones below those top few tiers will probably just drop down to 10 man. I suspect a decent percentage of the 25 man guilds out there are only in it for the better gear, not because they want to run 25 man raids.
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Panerai 1Member Wears Business Socks
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re: One More Item for the Cataclysm Awesome List of Awesome
by Panerai 1 on 2010/04/28 17:44
Remember also there is guild leveling in Cat
I think they said that only the top X(20??) players would count towards guild level - but still, some guilds will want to make sure they are organized so they can easily autores/cheaprepair/mass-summon etc... whatever the talents end up being
_________________ "If we hit that bulls-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a deck of cards. Checkmate!" -zapp brannigan
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